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Thread: Cast bullet shavings in chamber question.

  1. #1
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    Cast bullet shavings in chamber question.

    I assume this is from the edge of one of the lube grooves.
    The couple that I have found were almost a perfect ring.
    Best I can tell it is happening on about 1 out of 10 rounds while shooting.
    Anything I can do to prevent or reduce this problem?
    0F71739C-24B9-44A3-ADCE-2997E12379A9.jpg
    Last edited by tsubaki; 06-13-2019 at 04:43 AM.
    Benny

    223 Rem, 7mm Rem Mag, 30 Carbine, 300 AAC, 30-30 Win, 308 Win, 30-06 Spr, 303 Brit, 458 SOCOM, 45-70 Govt.
    25 ACP, 32 S&W Long, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Rem Mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 454 Casull.

  2. #2
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    The bullets were sized .457".
    Hardness is about a BHN11.
    Lee’s Powder Through Expanding Die was used.
    The cases were flared as fully as the die would allow.
    Crimp was from the Pacesetter Die not the Factory Crimp Die.
    Picture of loaded case, bullet, flared cases and bullet sitting in flared case.
    B187FE23-7FBF-45BE-A91A-D582D8FFEC37.jpg
    Last edited by tsubaki; 06-13-2019 at 04:31 AM.
    Benny

    223 Rem, 7mm Rem Mag, 30 Carbine, 300 AAC, 30-30 Win, 308 Win, 30-06 Spr, 303 Brit, 458 SOCOM, 45-70 Govt.
    25 ACP, 32 S&W Long, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Rem Mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 454 Casull.

  3. #3
    Administrator DukeInFlorida's Avatar
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    So, you have some information missing from your descriptions.
    1) Chambering - Which, from your tagline, I presume is 458 Socom
    2) Method of coating your bullets - I am going to presume these are powder coated, vs Hi-Tek (2 part epoxy) coating
    3) Whether these are commercially purchased or your own home cast bullets

    I'm going to presume that you made the bullets yourself, since you seem to know the approximate hardness. Final (after coating) diameter of 458 Socom bullets should be .459 to properly obturate the back ends of the bullets (same as with regular cast). That's .001" larger than the theoretical bore diameter. But, you didn't indicate if that .457 was before or after coating. If it was .457 fter coating, then one of the most obvious issues is the bullets being undersized.

    I am also guessing that you did the home baked powder coating (vs the 2 part epoxy - Hi-Tek) coating. The powder coating, in my long experience is too brittle to handle any mistakes in bullet sizing. Also, your hardness at BHN 11 is too soft for 458 Socom speeds. The back end of the bullets, even though not properly sized, and using the wrong coating, should actually be at like 20 or so.

    So, what's likely happening is that because of the damage to the bullet when it sees firing pressures, you are ripping off the back end of the coating.

    Solutions:
    1) Switch to the Hi-Tek version of coating (hope that you haven't made too deep an investment in powder).
    2) Cast the bullets in 100% wheel weight alloy, and water drop them from the mold. That will yield about 20 BHN
    3) Make sure the final size is about .459
    4) Don't over flare the cases. That will yield shorter case life. And, will grab the bullets so tightly (when you crimp) that you'll likely cut through the coating (especially powder coating). Flare only enough so that the bullet will slide in without shaving the bullet on the way in.

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  4. #4
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    My experience with 458 socom was only with jacketed bullets, but I couldn’t get the powder through expander to open the mouths enough to seat properly and still pass a chamber gauge. I had to use a universal expander and bell only the mouth, then straighten it back up with a factory crimp die.

    I don’t know how much of a difference this makes with cast though.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeInFlorida View Post
    So, you have some information missing from your descriptions.
    1) Chambering - Which, from your tagline, I presume is 458 Socom ___YES IT IS___
    2) Method of coating your bullets - I am going to presume these are powder coated, vs Hi-Tek (2 part epoxy) coating ___HARBOR FREIGHT POWDER COATING___
    3) Whether these are commercially purchased or your own home cast bullets ___CAST MY OWN___

    I'm going to presume that you made the bullets yourself, since you seem to know the approximate hardness. Final (after coating) diameter of 458 Socom bullets should be .459 to properly obturate the back ends of the bullets (same as with regular cast). That's .001" larger than the theoretical bore diameter. But, you didn't indicate if that .457 was before or after coating. If it was .457 fter coating, then one of the most obvious issues is the bullets being undersized. ___RESIZED .457 AFTER CASTING AND AFTER POWDER COATING___

    I am also guessing that you did the home baked powder coating (vs the 2 part epoxy - Hi-Tek) coating. The powder coating, in my long experience is too brittle to handle any mistakes in bullet sizing. Also, your hardness at BHN 11 is too soft for 458 Socom speeds. The back end of the bullets, even though not properly sized, and using the wrong coating, should actually be at like 20 or so.

    So, what's likely happening is that because of the damage to the bullet when it sees firing pressures, you are ripping off the back end of the coating.

    Solutions:
    1) Switch to the Hi-Tek version of coating (hope that you haven't made too deep an investment in powder).
    2) Cast the bullets in 100% wheel weight alloy, and water drop them from the mold. That will yield about 20 BHN
    3) Make sure the final size is about .459
    4) Don't over flare the cases. That will yield shorter case life. And, will grab the bullets so tightly (when you crimp) that you'll likely cut through the coating (especially powder coating). Flare only enough so that the bullet will slide in without shaving the bullet on the way in.
    Thanks Duke!
    The strange part is these bullets are working out well for me in my 45-70 @ 1665fps.
    I'm still testing loads with the same bullet but so far in the 458socom I'm only getting around 1472fps.
    Last edited by tsubaki; 06-13-2019 at 10:53 AM.
    Benny

    223 Rem, 7mm Rem Mag, 30 Carbine, 300 AAC, 30-30 Win, 308 Win, 30-06 Spr, 303 Brit, 458 SOCOM, 45-70 Govt.
    25 ACP, 32 S&W Long, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Rem Mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 454 Casull.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mbaker78 View Post
    My experience with 458 socom was only with jacketed bullets, but I couldn’t get the powder through expander to open the mouths enough to seat properly and still pass a chamber gauge. I had to use a universal expander and bell only the mouth, then straighten it back up with a factory crimp die.

    I don’t know how much of a difference this makes with cast though.
    This is my first experience with the powder through expander. It does flare the case if you adjust it almost all the way down. I may see if I can take it apart and see what size the button is before the flare.
    I also have the universal expander but haven't tried it on the 458socom cases.
    Benny

    223 Rem, 7mm Rem Mag, 30 Carbine, 300 AAC, 30-30 Win, 308 Win, 30-06 Spr, 303 Brit, 458 SOCOM, 45-70 Govt.
    25 ACP, 32 S&W Long, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Rem Mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 454 Casull.

  7. #7
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    Same bullets retrieved at 100 yards from a 45-70 @ 1665fps muzzle velocity.
    1EB31A50-E845-49FF-B7F9-8182AB31A87B.jpg
    Benny

    223 Rem, 7mm Rem Mag, 30 Carbine, 300 AAC, 30-30 Win, 308 Win, 30-06 Spr, 303 Brit, 458 SOCOM, 45-70 Govt.
    25 ACP, 32 S&W Long, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Rem Mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 454 Casull.

  8. #8
    Administrator DukeInFlorida's Avatar
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    Rather than use a powder through expander, I ONLY EVER use a Lyman "M Die" for all of my cast rifle bullet work. Instead of curling the case mouth, the M Die provides a nice two diameter expanded section in the neck, which is much easier to control.

    Not sure if Lyman makes one for your needs, but you should call them and ask. Good company, in CT.

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  9. #9
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    I took apart my 45-70 RCBS expander and was able to completely expand and flare the 458 brass with it by removing the set (lock) nut.
    Best I can tell, the RCBS expander is slightly larger than the Lee, it's also a lot slicker feeling and easier to use.
    I am getting another sizer (like Duke said) but I'm not sure yet if it will be .458" or .459".

    If the ring shaving persists, I will devise a better way than a sand trap to retrieve the bullets to see where it's coming from.
    Last edited by tsubaki; 06-18-2019 at 01:30 PM.
    Benny

    223 Rem, 7mm Rem Mag, 30 Carbine, 300 AAC, 30-30 Win, 308 Win, 30-06 Spr, 303 Brit, 458 SOCOM, 45-70 Govt.
    25 ACP, 32 S&W Long, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Rem Mag, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 454 Casull.

  10. #10
    Brass Trader SafetyJoe's Avatar
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    I cast my own lead bullets that I powder coat and I also use the lyman type m expanders. I'm guessing you bought Lyman #: 7349053 If that one is too long and you can't adjust it deep enough for the shorter 458 socom brass you might have to buy a 2nd 45 cal shorter one and swap out the center expander. The ones for 45 win mag and 45 colt might work because those cases are shorter.

    Another thing I've noticed is if I adjust the seating die like the instructions say sometimes I'll get the shaved lead ring too. That's because the crimp inside the seating die is squeezing the case mouth down before the bullet is fully seated. To bypass that crimp you need to adjust the center screw on the seating die almost all the way down. To get your seating depth close you have to adjust how much the entire seating die is screwed into the press. Once you get close lock down the die into the press and then use that little bit of adjustment you left in the center screw to get the bullet seated exactly where you want. Usually when you do this the actual seating die wont end up being screwed into the press very much. Sometimes only 4 or 5 threads, but that's still plenty enough to hold it in the press while bypassing that internal crimp.
    Last edited by SafetyJoe; 06-19-2019 at 07:56 AM.

  11. #11
    Administrator DukeInFlorida's Avatar
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    Actually, there are THREE "45" diameters.
    45 ACP, for example = .452"
    45 Colt/454 Casull = .454"
    45-70/458 Socom = .458"

    So, when you are reloading 458 Socom, it needs to be .458"

    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyJoe View Post
    I cast my own lead bullets that I powder coat and I also use the lyman type m expanders. I'm guessing you bought Lyman #: 7349053 If that one is too long and you can't adjust it deep enough for the shorter 458 socom brass you might have to buy a 2nd 45 cal shorter one and swap out the center expander. The ones for 45 win mag and 45 colt might work because those cases are shorter.

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  12. #12
    Brass Trader SafetyJoe's Avatar
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    Yeah, he'll need the .458 center expander from the 45-70 lyman type m die, but the exterior part of the die itself might be too long and the expander might not be able to reach down far enough to expand the shorter 458 socom brass so that's why I said he " might " need to use the exterior part of one of the others. He reloads 45 colt so that's probably the one he should get " if " he actually needs a shorter die body to make everything work for the shorter 458 socom brass.


    Quote Originally Posted by DukeInFlorida View Post
    Actually, there are THREE "45" diameters.
    45 ACP, for example = .452"
    45 Colt/454 Casull = .454"
    45-70/458 Socom = .458"

    So, when you are reloading 458 Socom, it needs to be .458"

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